Lawrence Meckan
|
History never repeats? - 2005/10/25 18:21
Martin,
Firstly, it is good to see you openly discussing the Mambo team and what it may mean for you and those who use Remository (I'm one of them).
I've already made a comment on Devils' Advocate and I'll leave this here to address something not covered as much in your Devil's Advocate article as it was aimed for an external market.
There was one statement which is consistent both here, and in your words on Devils' Advocate. The idea behind your statement is somewhat unsettling.
"It is hard to figure out what really happened, and I don’t really want to trawl through history." paralleled with your words on Devils' Advocate: "I don't know who is right and probably never will."
Yes, it's hard to figure out what's really happened. The fact I got locked, banned and shut out of most communication channels Mambo related for trying to get that information out reflects on the management decisions made by the Board and by the company, Mambo Communities, run by Miro itself. It became harder, but not impossible to get the information I needed to see the relative worth of the Board's ideology.
That's why it is important to get whatever information is available out to people. That way, people can understand who is right and who is wrong, because it gives people the freedom to make up their own mind, outside of whatever PR is going on to keep the Mambo machine well oiled.
This is why I approached Miro in the first instance before they uncerimonously banned me for speaking out against the actions Mambo Communities were doing on the forums. That is why I discussed the issues with the Core team.
Now, Martin, what happens if the history of the last two months shows that whatever the Foundation has been feeding you hasn't exactly been legit ? Are you prepared, as an independent Board member, to stand up and help direct the direction of the Foundation so that it keeps to professional ethics and legal standards ?
Lawrence Meckan
Absalom Media
ex-Mambo 3PD Standards & Guidelines team (removed, not resigned)
|
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
admin
|
Re:History never repeats? - 2005/10/25 21:29
Hi Lawrence
Thanks for raising your concerns. I really don't believe that dredging over the past is going to help. Just to prove it, I will do a little bit of it.
You've asserted in the Joomla forum that Travis Fraser was the new Mambo team leader, and the rest of the team "merely code monkeys". In an apparently critical aside, you mentioned that "counterpoint" had never posted in the forums.
Now I am "counterpoint", and have extensively posted as "mbrampton" as well as more recently posting as "counterpoint". I preferred to remain anonymous while reviewing the situation and starting to develop plans for Mambo. In future, I will probably post exclusively as "counterpoint".
There was no team leader after the departure of the old team, until a number of people had volunteered to join. Then there was an election, for which Travis did not stand. I am the only team leader there has been in the current period. Likewise, I was elected to the board of the Mambo Foundation. Direction for the project is being set as a result of discussion between all the team members, but particularly by the Mambo Steering Committee, all of whom were elected by their teams. I can't help finding the description "code monkey" rather offensive - do you really think it describes me or my colleagues? Is the use of that exact phrase by "Davion" a coincidence?
Did that advance anything? Everything above is absolutely true - but do you feel better for hearing it? Those matters are from my personal experience, so I know the facts. But do you even believe me?
And I know that the situation has been seriously misrepresented. Regarding the earlier stuff, as I said, I simply do not know, am unlikely ever to know and don't think that knowing would really do any good to anyone. More than likely there are ill advised moves on all sides, but how does that help us to move forwards? In reference to the title you have chosen, I'll quote Roy Basler: "To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity". 
I am by no means certain that banning people from forums was the right move. But then I did not have to make a decision about handling a situation where the whole of the forums seemed to be a pitched battle, full of confident statements that had doubtful basis in fact. Not to mention a variety of quite offensive personal attacks. I can't remember your posts in detail, so I am not accusing you of anything - that was just the general atmosphere. What should a moderator do to posts that serve no purpose other than to attack the host organisation and to urge people to desert it and go elsewhere?
I'm not going to make bold assertions about my own integrity and what I will do as a board member of the Mambo Foundation. My record past and present is the criterion for judging that. No doubt people will make that judgement as they think fit. Read my past "Devil's Advocate" articles if you want a guide.
What can be achieved in the future is the real issue, and I am very happy to discuss anything relevant to that. But I'm not looking to cast blame or make enemies in any quarter
Martin
|
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
Lawrence Meckan / Absalom Media
|
Re:History never repeats? - 2005/10/26 05:51
My assertion regarding Travis was based on the Forge rights layout for the 4.5.x buildbase, seen here:
http://mamboforge.net/project/memberlist.php?group_id=5
Both he and the "Foundation" are listed as project leads, and everyone else, including yourself is listed as a Maintainer.
Who therefore has control over it ? Travis, as he has sign off rights to whatever you as counterpoint in CVS, or you as the project lead ?
I understand how GForge works intimately. I was at one point trying to develop themes and templates for Mambo-related forges, including running the various buildbases (around the time of Robert Castley's lead) If you are a maintainer, you obviously have less rights than Travis, right ?
I believe your words.
I recognise I don't have completely everything, but I do have a few more pieces of the puzzle than you, and you've revised some of the pieces I was missing. Thank you for openly discussing this.
Likewise, I am not looking to cast blame, but to gain some respectability and accountability by being able to question what the Board does. This is where a timeline of events will help as it will provide an understanding of where things broke and what people need to look out for now that the forum has significantly shifted in focus from what it was. This is why I ask questions.
Let me present a scenario to you - as a member of the Foundation, where can you make a request that the hosting arrangements be shifted off Mambo Communities so as to demonstrate that Miro no longer wants ownership or control over Mambo ? After all, it has been Mambo Communities who has been responsible for the censorship of late.
I tried the numerous blackhole email addresses of the Foundation over the last few months. None of them replied.
I tried contacting the Secretary for information.
I tried contacting the PR team lead. No response thus far.
Where should this information go ?
|
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
admin
Karma: 101
|
Re:History never repeats? - 2005/10/26 16:36
Thanks for your comments, Lawrence. Mamboforge is hosted and administered by Miro, but that is mere mechanics. The release of software is the responsibility of the core team, of which I am leader, not absolute ruler! Travis is entitled to the same input as any other member of the team.
Certainly there are issues when open source impinges on the commercial world, but there are very few if any large open source projects that do not have relationships with commercial organisations. Those issues can lead to disagreements. In this case, I do not believe that right is entirely on only one side.
But where there are disagreements, they are only likely to be resolved through constructive discussions. The assumption that one party is irrevocably committed to an unacceptable position renders dialogue impossible. I can't hope to deal with questions like "Has Peter Lamont stopped beating his wife?".
Faced with an aggressive campaign of denigration, I think the Mambo organisation has struggled to find an appropriate response. We are now moving on, and as I've said before, all the discussions I am involved in are related to how Mambo can meet and exceed the expectations of its large community of stakeholders.
Martin Brampton aka Counterpoint
http://aliro.org
http://black-sheep-research.com |
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
Lawrence Meckan / Absalom Media
|
Re:History never repeats? - 2005/10/27 11:10
So if the mechanics changed so that Miro was totally removed from their administrative control over Mambo, it would be forseeable that those who have been thrown out of the community for disagreeing with Mambo Communities' actions in managing those forums could be welcomed back, right?
Note that I have clearly delineated between Mambo as a open source product and the company currently sequested to manage the Mambo forums. I am pro-Mambo, but not happy with the level and direction of the company used to manage the forums in dealing with Mambo users.
After all, shouldn't the company employed by the Foundation have the best interests at heart of Mambo users and developers, and not seek to throw people off the forums merely because they disagree with the companies' level of control in censoring discussion ?
|
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
admin
Karma: 101
|
Re:History never repeats? - 2005/10/27 20:04
Well, you're rather pursuing the line of "Will you stop Peter Lamont beating his wife?" here!
As you know very well, Peter Lamont and Miro have been closely involved with and supportive of Mambo since its inception. I think it would be grossly unfair to suggest that the Miro people want anything other than the best possible future for Mambo. Peter has a very strong personal commitment to Mambo.
The problem is that recently there has been sharp disagreement on what counts as the best future for Mambo. These things happen, and unfortunately there has been a good deal of bitterness and more than a few cross words.
All the same, everyone involved with Mambo accepts that nothing is perfect, and we are constantly discussing possible changes in every aspect of the organisation. Change is hard to handle, though, and intransigent and harshly expressed views are often counter productive. Nobody knows the ultimately ideal way to run an open source project.
Noone in the Mambo organisation is wanting to cut anyone off. You will see that today, with the full agreement of everyone at Mambo, I have written to Andrew Eddie suggesting areas for collaboration. The only thing we object to is discussion that has no purpose but to denigrate and attack.
Martin Brampton aka Counterpoint
http://aliro.org
http://black-sheep-research.com |
|
|
| | Sorry, you do not currently have permission to write here. |
|
Forum
